Star Trek fandom inclusion takes center stage in this powerful episode featuring Kennedy Allen, co-founder of the Women at Warp podcast. Kennedy joins hosts Cal and Rhiannon to share her journey from being inspired by Nichelle Nichols (Uhura) to spending over a decade podcasting about feminism, intersectional diversity, and representation within the final frontier. This is an essential conversation for any Trek fan committed to building a truly welcoming future. For more deep dives into inclusive Trek storytelling, check out our interview with Star Trek novelist Una McCormack.
The Bug and the Warp Core: Kennedy’s Trek Journey
Kennedy Allen’s story is steeped in Star Trek fandom inclusion from the very beginning. Raised by a sci-fi and horror-loving mom, Kennedy grew up immersed in Trek culture. She reflects on her formative years watching The Next Generation and how Voyager shaped her pre-teen identity. Her 10-year run co-hosting the influential Black Tribbles podcast laid the groundwork for joining the all-women team at Women at Warp, where inclusion and representation are core values.
Fandom Wars: Gatekeeping and Discovery
This episode confronts the toxic gatekeeping that often plagues fandom spaces. Kennedy candidly shares her initial resistance to Star Trek: Discovery, later embracing it during quarantine and becoming deeply moved by its lore and Captain Michael Burnham. She describes Discovery as a “vehicle to flush out the bigots,” calling out those who “hate seeing Black women and queer people in positions of power.” Her insights underscore the urgent need for Star Trek fandom inclusion across all series and fan communities.
Justice for Tasha: Sexualization on Set
Kennedy exposes the troubling history of sexualization faced by female actors in Trek, emphasizing the importance of intersectional diversity in creative leadership:
- Denise Crosby (Tasha Yar): Left The Next Generation due to frustration with limited, overly sexualized screen time
- Gates McFadden (Dr. Crusher): Departed after Season 1 of The Next Generation for similar reasons
- Terry Farrell (Jadzia Dax): Endured humiliating costume fittings involving “different sizes of water bra” before leaving Deep Space Nine
These stories highlight why Star Trek fandom inclusion must extend beyond casting and into the production process itself.
Why Kennedy Allen’s Voice Matters
Kennedy Allen’s perspective is vital to the future of Star Trek. Her advocacy for Star Trek fandom inclusion challenges outdated norms and pushes the franchise toward a more equitable, representative vision. Whether you’re a lifelong Trekkie or a newcomer, this episode offers a bold, necessary look at the fight for a truly inclusive final frontier.
Full Transcript Outline (Quick Jumps)
00:00 Technical Difficulties and Introductions
02:29 The Star Trek Journey Begins
05:25 Podcasting and Community Engagement
08:23 Navigating Fandom and Representation
11:16 The Importance of Allyship
14:20 Reflections on Fatigue and Enjoyment
17:17 The Ripple Effect of Star Trek
20:18 Creating a Balanced Community
21:13 Navigating Fandom and Personal Growth
23:30 Character Evolution and Compassion
25:52 Challenging Social Constructs
29:17 Reflections on Humanity During Crisis
33:48 The Importance of Listening and Inclusivity
39:04 The Enduring Legacy of Star Trek
43:06 Emotional Impact of Star Trek Episodes
45:37 The Role of Humor and Whimsy in Serious Contexts
47:27 The Importance of Failure and Growth
48:49 Iconic Star Trek Episodes to Recommend
52:32 Representation and Character Development in Star Trek
58:35 The Complexities of Sexualization in Media
01:02:26 Navigating Gender Dynamics in Entertainment
01:05:28 The Importance of Open Conversations
01:08:26 Cultural Representation and Identity
01:12:20 The Impact of Social Media on Cultural Awareness
01:15:21 Closing Thoughts and Future Connections
🎬 Full Interview Transcript
Cal Macdonald (00:00.11)
Let’s let it run. That’s it going. Okay.
Cal Macdonald (00:07.726)
Right we’ve got another tech problem with you Martin. It says it’s not recorded you’ve stopped recording I think you’ve stopped altogether now fantastic.
Martin, if you can hear us refresh. Look at him, he’s completely froze just as we went live. If you can… Yeah, it’s a very thoughtful look.
Kennedy (she/her) (00:21.216)
Stand by.
Rhiannon (00:22.11)
Excellent. Just on time.
Kennedy (she/her) (00:27.68)
Who’s turn is it to monitor the communications array? What’s going on down there? Report!
Rhiannon (00:27.872)
It’s a nice smile though, you know, it’s a nice smile.
Cal Macdonald (00:35.842)
Yeah, yeah. Martin, open healing frequencies.
Rhiannon (00:40.34)
I’m afraid not.
Cal Macdonald (00:43.66)
Refresh Martin. It’s something… jeez. Well, we’ve lost Martin again. I think we’ll… Alright. Now he’s back. Martin?
Martin say something please. This is definitely getting cut out all of this.
Well, I see Martin, you there?
Cal Macdonald (01:12.27)
I don’t think it’s working for you, Martin. I’m just gonna, we’re just gonna have to carry on and if you can make it in, you can make it in. I’m sure myself and Rhee can handle this. All right, okay. Yeah,
Kennedy (she/her) (01:22.624)
At that’s benevolent expression to have when frozen. It could have been worse.
Rhiannon (01:22.742)
We will.
Yeah, I was gonna say it could be worse. He’s got a nice smile, you know, that’s… could be literally just like, what? In fact, if we do that for long enough, maybe it’ll make him feel included, like we’re all a bit frozen, you know, just like… Excellent.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:29.972)
Yeah, he could’ve been like…
Cal Macdonald (01:30.316)
Yeah, yeah.
Cal Macdonald (01:38.188)
Yeah, okay. Right, will just, I’ll just get this thing started and we’ll see if we have any luck with Martin. Okay, one, two, three.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:38.826)
He’ll come back and we’re all like that. No, that’ll probably mess with his head a bit.
Rhiannon (01:50.422)
Mm-hmm. Fabulous.
Cal Macdonald (01:54.818)
Hi everyone and welcome to Ocast, your island gateway to all things geek. I am your host, Carla MacDonald and joining me tonight for the very first time in any podcast of any form and Rhiannon, how are you doing?
Rhiannon (02:11.244)
Hi there. Thank you so much for having me. It’s also, I’d like to say as well, full disclosure, whilst I was raised with Star Trek, I’m very much a, I’m like a baby Trekkie here. So I am, really, I’m honestly, so happy to be here and be part of the conversation.
Cal Macdonald (02:26.88)
All right. And we almost had him there, but we have like a Q entity that keeps popping in and out in the shape of Martin. So he might join us, he might not. We’ll see. We’ll see what happens here. But today we’re very fortunate to have a very special guest with. We are joined by Kennedy Allen, like a well-known voice in the Star Trek fandom. One of the co-founders, I believe, of the Woman in War podcast. A podcast that looks at issues of feminism and inclusion.
within Star Trek fandom and Martin I’m echoing now.
Manny (03:01.234)
Is it just me that you were losing?
Cal Macdonald (03:03.99)
Yes, and just right in the middle of my intro there for Kennedy.
Rhiannon (03:04.088)
Unfortunately so.
Manny (03:06.077)
Okay.
Kennedy (she/her) (03:11.22)
That’s all right. I’m just glad you’re here, Martin. Hi, everybody.
Cal Macdonald (03:15.522)
Hi there, after that.
Kennedy (she/her) (03:17.756)
I’m so glad to be here. Thank you for having me. Tapalev er shomobichan. Or is it agav? Is that more appropriate? Am I a… lauren gweilge, so bear with me. And even that’s, you know, not a lot.
Cal Macdonald (03:23.342)
Ah, falch i kene hin senn ghal, aschon glé va.
Rhiannon (03:23.572)
Manny (03:25.439)
Woo! Glimmer.
Cal Macdonald (03:33.026)
Yeah
Alright, and I suppose we’ll just get the introductory question. So, when did you get the Star Trek bug? Was it from early on or was later on in life?
Kennedy (she/her) (03:39.146)
I’m thrilled to be here, thanks so much.
Kennedy (she/her) (03:47.54)
cheese.
It was very early on. My mom is a huge, Star Trek and other sci-fi and horror nerd. So I grew up going to conventions. She saw Trek when she was like on her 10th birthday specifically and saw Nichelle Nichols for the first time and was completely inspired. She got her degree in communications, was a local television producer, the whole schmear.
Cal Macdonald (03:56.664)
Yeah
Kennedy (she/her) (04:19.09)
and would make sure that I came up in it. So I don’t think of them as costumes. It’s not cosplay. You’re in uniform. You’re on duty. You know what I mean? Polish those boots.
Rhiannon (04:24.664)
Okay.
Rhiannon (04:28.352)
I love that. I feel like was it the, Rare Spec podfest in 2019 where you were talking about that and just said that like, you know, the next generation like raised you. Like that was the very much it.
Kennedy (she/her) (04:38.332)
Yeah, that was the one that I started with. I mean, that’s the one I remember, right? So she had on T.O.S. when I was an infant. So there was always like that. The score always feels like a very fundamental part of my inner soundtrack, I guess, my inner score. But yeah, TNG was the one I was raised on.
Rhiannon (04:44.108)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (05:02.368)
DS9, I knew was cool, but it was too over my head to really get, but I was watching because Serac Lofton. And then the Dominion War really popped off. So it just got compelling, but I knew at that time it was a little over my head. Voyager was the one that I really connected with. It was my preteen Voyager, Buffy the Vampire Slayer. That whole vibe was very formative for me.
Rhiannon (05:09.3)
Naturally.
Cal Macdonald (05:09.869)
No.
Cal Macdonald (05:21.249)
Alright.
Rhiannon (05:27.928)
Mm-hmm.
Manny (05:30.318)
Kennedy (she/her) (05:32.417)
Enterprise, I had to develop an appreciation for because Enterprise. But, know, it’s been a long road getting from there to here. And, you know, we just kind of go from there. I started podcasting in 2011 with a show called Black Tribbles. Even though we were Trek in name, we were a
Cal Macdonald (05:38.613)
And it’s a long road. It’s a long road as well.
Cal Macdonald (05:45.165)
That has started over here to here.
Kennedy (she/her) (06:01.216)
Geek at Large podcast that talked about all types of, you know, geek culture through the lens of the black perspective. Won a few awards, you know, it was cool. And that lasted for 10 years. However, I gotta say that I was not a founder of Limit It Warp. I joined in year six for that.
Rhiannon (06:11.712)
on the casual.
Rhiannon (06:22.336)
Is it like 20 to I feel like I saw a post in sort of 2020 in the summer saying that you were joining as like a full time member of the team.
Kennedy (she/her) (06:26.527)
Yeah.
Mm-hmm. So I guested with them. We’d done a couple of panels, like me and Sue. We had done a couple of panels previously, but like, you know, joining them was just, a well, first of all, what a well-oiled machine. If you want things to get done, put women and femme presenting people at the helm, because it’s gonna get done. It was such a nurturing.
Rhiannon (06:33.015)
Yeah.
Rhiannon (06:36.93)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (06:49.78)
Isn’t that the word?
Kennedy (she/her) (06:54.086)
structured and for, you know, a neuro spicy brain, that structure can be daunting, but this was gentle and made sense. So there was no, you know, it was just an, no. And it was such a beautiful, make it so, engage, you know, it was such a welcome transition from being in a primarily male dominated space and having to, you know, for years I was the only woman on that show.
Rhiannon (06:57.367)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (07:03.646)
didn’t feel like there was that kind of competition against it. It was like, just let it be. yeah, make it so. Yeah, engage.
Kennedy (she/her) (07:23.284)
So I really had to assert my point of view and my experiences, not because they were toxic individuals, but toxic attachments can be formed to certain things, socially speaking, that if you don’t have a well-rounded group around you, you’re never going to be checked on that stuff. So I found myself having to be the one.
Rhiannon (07:29.547)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (07:38.456)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (07:43.938)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (07:46.731)
to check these well-meaning people on very serious things from time to time. So to step into a room of all women and femme presenting individuals and not have to worry about that was just like, thank God. And it was just what I needed because I don’t know if you all know about this, but like those people in the comments, they hate everything and they’re just intent on ruining everybody else’s day as well. And it really…
Rhiannon (07:49.208)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (07:56.322)
Mm-hmm.
Cal Macdonald (08:09.719)
Yeah.
Rhiannon (08:13.643)
It’s it’s
Kennedy (she/her) (08:14.728)
It’s, you know, it really came to a head with discovery, you know, and I will be the first person to admit I was part of the problem. You know, like I was like, why are we going back in time? Spock never had a sibling. What is going on? Mushroom drive, get out of here. It wasn’t interested. And it wasn’t until…
Rhiannon (08:17.25)
Yeah.
Cal Macdonald (08:18.157)
You
Rhiannon (08:22.699)
Yeah.
Cal Macdonald (08:23.494)
yeah.
Rhiannon (08:32.536)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (08:40.35)
the quarantine that I had an opportunity to sit down and watch it. I also wasn’t getting CBS All Access for one show. So I came in like right when the second season ended and was floored, floored by the lore, the world building Sonequa, Sonequa Martin Green. I’m trying to watch my mouth because it’s Captain Michael Mother F and Burnham. That’s her full name.
Cal Macdonald (08:46.057)
Alright.
Rhiannon (08:51.341)
Mm-hmm.
Cal Macdonald (08:58.989)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rhiannon (09:00.684)
Blown away. Blown away.
Rhiannon (09:07.96)
Legally. Legal Sunday name.
Cal Macdonald (09:08.491)
Yeah.
Kennedy (she/her) (09:09.632)
I’m just, you you must say the whole thing, otherwise it’s like a pimp named Slickback. You can’t just say, you have to say the whole thing. A title more than a name. Yeah, and I learned that, you know, I was wrong in everything that I had dug my heels in and really like kind of abandoned that nostalgic fandom parasocial ego that I think a lot of us have.
Cal Macdonald (09:12.886)
Yeah.
Rhiannon (09:19.744)
Mm-hmm. And honorific.
Rhiannon (09:24.706)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (09:32.98)
And I think it’s nice to kind of sit with that and deconstruct how you feel about these things as well, because you know what, and actually Star Trek not only welcomes that, but I think encourages many, many sort of points where, you know, I remember I was listening to a couple of episodes of Women at Warp and people were saying about the good stuff and also the negative stuff, you know, that you can pick out a bit of both, but the good stuff, does give the opportunity for this kind of developing conversation.
Kennedy (she/her) (09:37.543)
Yeah.
Manny (09:54.465)
you
Rhiannon (09:57.048)
and deconstructing things that we even as a fan base have probably come to understand and feel like we’ve got dead set on this. Like actually, no, we can keep growing. We can keep getting better. That’s OK.
Cal Macdonald (10:01.868)
Yeah.
Kennedy (she/her) (10:05.28)
Yeah, if you watch, not just science fiction, right? But this show franchise, this property in particular, how anyone who watches this and can hold on to a closed mindset, at this point, it’s just intentional malicious ignorance. Because what do you mean? What do you mean?
Rhiannon (10:10.711)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (10:20.446)
Mm-hmm. It’s, it’s, yeah. No, definitely. It’s like, what do you mean you’re there? I think there was one thing that I know Callum had been talking about and you were saying about sort of allyship within the community. And I know you sort of saying that how can fans and, and possibly male fans and be better allies to women in the community. And I actually posed this question to my fiance and they kind of touched on it being like, well, you know, it’s to being
Cal Macdonald (10:21.377)
Yeah.
Cal Macdonald (10:26.157)
Yeah.
Kennedy (she/her) (10:34.954)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (10:48.248)
receptive and not condescending and I thought about that instance where people talk about band t-shirts right and they go okay how many Nirvana songs do you know and it’s like no no no no like you just got to let people live and you’ve got a lot of people kind of go through that and experience it and you know and continue to expand and not step on our own toes for no reason like
Kennedy (she/her) (11:08.008)
Right. There’s a difference between preserving a cultural identity and gatekeeping. And I feel like that nuance is something that a lot of folks struggle with. And unfortunately, I do see it in, I mean, you see it in fandom at large because human beings, but you also see it in Star Trek and in Discovery, I think in particular acts as a vehicle to flush out the bigots. Like you post anything.
Rhiannon (11:17.644)
Mm-hmm.
Manny (11:27.54)
you
Rhiannon (11:30.357)
and
Rhiannon (11:34.456)
and
Kennedy (she/her) (11:36.689)
anything discovery related, I guarantee you there will be anywhere between five and 28 cis-head white men who are butthurt that they don’t have centered representation on the show. And they’re gonna come up with a litany. It’s almost like a script. It’s like a script. They all list the same things about what they hate about it. And it’s just like, just say you hate seeing black women and queer people in positions of power and go.
Cal Macdonald (11:39.671)
Yeah.
Rhiannon (11:49.858)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (11:54.112)
Yeah, it’s like they’ve prepared it, they’re ready to give it. Yeah.
Cal Macdonald (11:54.241)
Yeah, I’ve seen it. I’ve read it. Yeah.
Manny (11:54.476)
that’s not how it
Kennedy (she/her) (12:06.324)
Just say it and go, you can admit it to yourself. All of us can move on. Like, it’s just, what are we doing?
Rhiannon (12:10.444)
Yeah, it’s like, if they need to say that out loud and sit with that themselves, that’s, you know, they can do that kind of almost in the also in their own time, because like this space is held for all the good stuff. You know what mean? Like this is held for the love and the progress. And I mean, I know a couple of episodes touched even on like the things like that Star Trek has inherently helped, and this sort of the ripple effect. I think you at one point yourself mentioned like even just technology, like I remember watching
Kennedy (she/her) (12:38.261)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (12:39.564)
the JJ Abrams versions, which actually kind of reinvigorated my childhood love for Star Trek, actually. And everything in the ships was white and I couldn’t help but think like that was like Apple influenced, right? And so you think you can even have like little things like this. Imagine like, just, if you see this negativity online and that’s what you associated, that’s what you’re to think about it. Whereas actually, if we can just continue to expand the positivity, the representation, all the good stuff, like that’s what it should be about.
Cal Macdonald (12:44.845)
Yeah, yeah.
Kennedy (she/her) (12:44.861)
Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (12:52.257)
for sure.
Cal Macdonald (12:52.831)
yeah.
Kennedy (she/her) (13:08.352)
and just grow, like, to seek out new worlds and new civilizations, to boldly go where no one has gone before. Like, what? Like, how many?
Rhiannon (13:13.684)
Exactly. It’s what it’s inherently in the message. Like you’ve got to be you’ve got to be prepared for that ripple effect is going to carry on going out there. Like it’s going to keep doing it. That’s the point.
Cal Macdonald (13:20.663)
Yeah.
Kennedy (she/her) (13:25.31)
just wanna know, how many Ks are in the Star Trek that they’re watching? Because I feel like they might have gotten a bootleg or some type of weird, you know, cable access clan member weird, you know, manifesto. I don’t know. I can’t, I genuinely have no idea.
Cal Macdonald (13:32.289)
Yeah.
Rhiannon (13:33.324)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (13:41.92)
huh. Maybe they just send it out, like as a monthly subscription.
Kennedy (she/her) (13:45.855)
I, anything, literally anything is possible. Cause I don’t understand how you, how we can watch the same thing and you walk away with this. It’s very frustrating. And it’s also, you know, it can wear on you for a while. I’ve been podcasting for almost 15 years now. Like it gets exhausting battling ignorance in the comments.
Cal Macdonald (13:46.22)
Yeah
Rhiannon (13:51.34)
and get such different… Yeah. Yeah, totally.
Rhiannon (14:02.871)
Mm.
them.
Cal Macdonald (14:05.804)
Yo, here.
Kennedy (she/her) (14:08.33)
when you, and I’m sure you all, if you haven’t discovered this already, you soon will, that once you start building momentum and grow more visibility, you’re going to attract the bots, which are sometimes hard to distinguish from actual humans. And then you’ll get the actual humans that are awful as well. So like, you really have to hold space for your own human piece and determine who you want to interact with in these instances, because it can,
Manny (14:18.431)
.
Cal Macdonald (14:18.964)
Yeah.
Rhiannon (14:31.138)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (14:38.548)
distract from the joy of the content, right? We’re all here because we like the same thing. And it can be kind of, you really have to figure out for yourself, whatever that balance is that doesn’t, you know, disrupt your inherent love for a thing. Cause I definitely ruined Star Trek for myself for a second. Like.
Rhiannon (14:44.685)
Yeah.
Rhiannon (14:56.952)
Can I just say thank you for doing this for the last 15 years? And like, I’m keeping, you know, like genuinely on behalf. Thank you for helping to protect that space because that must, you know, to have to feel like you’re fighting so many corners on something that you love. why should you, do you know what I mean? Like, no one should have to do that, but you have done that. And thank you for doing that within our community. It means a lot to many people, I’m sure.
Cal Macdonald (14:57.645)
Yeah.
Kennedy (she/her) (15:07.188)
Thank you.
Kennedy (she/her) (15:20.458)
Thank you. I really appreciate you saying that. Truly, I went to a convention back in May and sat in on a little piece of a panel that it was like a one woman show essentially. And she was talking about feminism and seeing it through Star Trek and seeing how Star Trek got it right and got it wrong in so many instances. And I’m not gonna put my age out there, but she was significantly younger than me. And everything she was saying is stuff that I had either.
Rhiannon (15:40.258)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (15:47.787)
personally said or things that we have all said collectively within conversation. And just to see somebody younger than me, like that much younger than me, be on the right path. I was like, you know, kids are all right.
Rhiannon (15:51.253)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (16:00.6)
And it’s so funny, let’s actually say the kids are alright. Not that I’ve been completely deep diving into everything you’re talking about, but I believe you actually wrote an article that was titled like Star Babies a couple of years ago, where you used the phrase the kids are alright. And it was about, yeah, I know this is good, I’m sorry, I’ve been doing like a bit of a research deep dive, but you said, and it was like at the end of it, and you were like, the kids are alright. And I was like, you know what?
Cal Macdonald (16:01.623)
Yeah.
Manny (16:06.047)
you
Rhiannon (16:24.418)
That is really nice because it has spanned generations. And so in this, you were talking about sort of the individuals like Chekov and Nog and Jake Sisko and people that have kind of risen above or risen with or risen to challenges that have been provided by sort of social constructs within their lives. But I thought that it was really nice that you’re like, actually, know what? This is a thing that has spanned generations.
and it will continue, you know, it’s going to continue to do that. And that’s a really powerful thing. And I’m glad that you’ve been able to see possibly, you know, the impact of people like yourself and other people that actually, there are people that are out there going, yeah, this is what it’s for. is, know, like in the best way, you’re seeing that come up through the ranks, come up through the uniform, come up through the ranks, you know, it’s important.
Kennedy (she/her) (17:11.838)
Yeah, it-
It is gratifying in ways that you cannot put a price on that. You know what I mean? It’s invaluable, particularly when you’re like me and you’ve gotten to a point in your life where you’re just kind of wore out. And you just want to enjoy it again for yourself and not for a group or a brand and represent yourself, not a group or a brand.
Rhiannon (17:21.89)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (17:36.29)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (17:44.128)
you know, to prevent fatigue, you know, or rather to, how do I say this?
Rhiannon (17:53.164)
You’ve to keep your cup full for yourself or else you can’t give to others.
Kennedy (she/her) (17:56.597)
Yeah, was getting to a point where it felt like work and we were all doing this for fun. So it really shouldn’t feel like work if we’re all doing this for funsies, right? But just as that fatigue was starting to really settle in and we decided to end Women at Warp on a 10-year note.
Rhiannon (18:05.496)
Yeah.
Rhiannon (18:10.168)
100%.
Kennedy (she/her) (18:23.168)
That was the first convention that I had done. I mean, we still had a panel, but we weren’t tabling. I wasn’t working the event. And it was nice to just of hang back and go to do things at your own leisure. And just falling into that panel was so like, I had to go upstairs and take a moment because I was all emotional. hearing this person I don’t know probably didn’t listen to the show, may have listened to the show. You never really know. But just be in their element and speak nothing but truth.
Rhiannon (18:43.914)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (18:52.928)
in this truly masterful way. I’m blanking on this person’s name and I feel bad because they had on this immaculate Yeoman Rand cosplay, like the hair, everything was perfect. Yeah, it was just perfect. I was so proud of a person that I had never met before my life. It was just like immensely gratifying to know that, know, because in certain struggles, especially socially and in terms of like justice is concerned.
Cal Macdonald (19:01.453)
Awesome.
Rhiannon (19:05.592)
I couldn’t have done more.
Rhiannon (19:11.544)
That’s really beautiful.
Kennedy (she/her) (19:20.672)
One can’t always lay down the mantle. Some battles are perpetually uphill, they’re perpetually difficult, and they can be taxing on one’s determination. So, you know.
Rhiannon (19:37.782)
And at the end of the day, it’s got to stay something that if Star Trek is something that fills you up, right? And it gives you this hope and it gives you this joy. Like sometimes it’s okay to like, you know, to stay, take a little step to take that time for your own peace. And actually, you know, it’s, it’s okay. So it’s not even sort of like passing the mantle or the flame on to like all those that are kind of maybe they are in the position where they can do that right now. And you can have a little bit of well-earned rest, a little bit of protection for yourself, you know, like I don’t think, you know, and 10 years, that’s a…
Kennedy (she/her) (20:04.447)
Yeah.
Rhiannon (20:06.668)
That’s a long time, especially, you know, attending events and panels and being in the public eye as someone who is holding that flame. That’s a lot. That’s a lot. And again, we thank you for doing that. Like, it’s really important.
Kennedy (she/her) (20:10.624)
and
Cal Macdonald (20:16.749)
Yeah, it is. It’s an incredible effort.
Kennedy (she/her) (20:17.376)
Thank you for listening. That’s the thing, because you can get a group together and talk about a thing that you love till you’re blue in the face. But if no one’s listening, if no one’s participating in the conversation, you run the risk of it being like an echo chamber, which is no fun for anybody unless you’re, you that’s how your idealisms thrive. I don’t know. I can’t relate.
Cal Macdonald (20:25.613)
That’s it.
Rhiannon (20:29.366)
Mm-hmm.
Cal Macdonald (20:44.534)
Yeah.
Rhiannon (20:45.016)
Yeah.
Cal Macdonald (20:46.893)
But it was interesting what you said there about when you had to be that one voice in the room and I’ve just had that experience but in reverse and I’ve got to say a big thank you to Madeline who you know Rhiannon. Like she was the one that came up to me and said your podcast is pretty male dominated and good on you. She made me aware of it and I’m working on it now. I’ve got Rhiannon involved, I’ve got some other women. I’m like yeah this has got to be a bit more balanced this.
Kennedy (she/her) (20:49.289)
way.
Rhiannon (21:00.834)
Mm-hmm.
Cal Macdonald (21:15.225)
that was me just falling into old habits I guess and just that person checked me and I just took it on board. I didn’t do what a lot of other men would have done in that situation but yeah that really rang through what you said there.
Rhiannon (21:27.862)
I think, and to be honest, it’s even like, as we were talking about the idea of like allyship, it’s like actually just kind of being able to be in an active ally is one of those things where you’re not only just willing to call like other people out, you know, I mean, like you see your friend doing something and you’re like, hang on, mate, that’s not actually that chill, please don’t speak like that in this space, but also being able to turn to yourself and go and hang on a sec, I could be doing more for this. And that’s really powerful. And I know that sort of we have as our side of the community have definitely felt that.
Kennedy (she/her) (21:50.367)
Yeah.
Rhiannon (21:56.448)
As I said, I’m delighted to be here.
Kennedy (she/her) (21:58.869)
Like you should be able to notice. I’m sorry, go ahead.
Cal Macdonald (22:03.723)
No, sorry, carry on. Sorry. I think it’s a little delious isn’t it?
Kennedy (she/her) (22:06.792)
Okay.
I just feel like that can be applied, that mentality can be applied to fandom as well, right? Just citing that example about me learning about discovery again, I had to check myself and get over the fact that Star Trek still went on without me in the writers room contributing to it.
Rhiannon (22:18.871)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (22:23.148)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, 100%.
Manny (22:33.641)
you
Kennedy (she/her) (22:36.218)
and me being immensely frustrated that a lot of my ideas are happening anyway without having any contact with anybody. So it’s like, if we’re on the same brain wave, you should hire me. But since I’m actively trying to leave being in the media, like I’m just pivoting completely, I had to realize that that was a me thing. It’s one thing if something raises your haunches, right? If you get your feathers up.
Rhiannon (22:43.127)
Yeah.
Hahaha
Rhiannon (22:53.218)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (22:58.39)
Mm.
Rhiannon (23:02.572)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (23:04.308)
and you sit there and think about why your feathers are up. If it’s a them problem, keep the feathers up, pack their eyeballs out, right? But if it’s a you problem, take a breath, you know, realize where you’re part of the problem and then you can proceed from there because you have a more informed, you know, outlook on what the issue is.
Rhiannon (23:07.725)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (23:11.255)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (23:23.444)
I think that just naturally also evolves with age and as well it’s interesting obviously from a fandom perspective. Let’s say watching Star Trek as a child, then watching it as an adult, then watching it. You get these moments where, I don’t know about you guys, but you start identifying with different people and different people’s and different people’s journeys and then all of a sudden things that used to annoy me don’t annoy me anymore because I have developed this compassion either for myself, which I didn’t have before.
or compassion for other people, which I’ve gone, hang on a second. That’s a big, that, know, and you notice that you’ve, you’ve actually, you’ve corrected yourself and you’ve done that. mean, I was thinking about, I was, was listening to an episode actually that was about Detective Crusher. think it was like episode two one two. And Beverly never used to stand out to me as like my, as, okay.
Kennedy (she/her) (24:08.414)
Mmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (24:15.528)
It took Sue, it literally took Sue for me to look at Bev as a fully realized person, truly.
Rhiannon (24:24.064)
And it’s so interesting, isn’t it? Because it’s like, I, so now having changed careers and I also work in healthcare and things like that. So I’m in sort of that, universe, I guess, in a way. And seeing her being put into a perspective where it’s like, okay, she’s in the medical, she’s in the sick bay, she’s in medical bay, she doesn’t really, and she’s kind of used as an opportunity for like alternate opinions and things like that. But actually what I noticed this time around was actually like the spinning plates that she’s doing.
Kennedy (she/her) (24:34.826)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (24:52.948)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (24:53.014)
Like when she kind of starts doing like, you know, able to just step in and comprehend the other sciences, able to step in to the espionage and like, she’s so multifaceted. And at first, when I first started seeing that, was like, she’s not all that. And I’m like, actually she’s really like, you know, fighting for her space in that place. And it was so interesting because I didn’t, didn’t used to feel for her or kind of understand what was going on. And it’s interesting, isn’t it? Just like as another thing, like associating with different characters at different times and kind of correcting yourself on.
Kennedy (she/her) (25:07.946)
Mm-hmm.
Cal Macdonald (25:10.379)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kennedy (she/her) (25:10.631)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (25:22.754)
Possibly like my own misogyny like, you know internalized misogyny and things like that that I hadn’t even Imagined to sit with by that age, but that I do now like it’s yeah
Kennedy (she/her) (25:25.672)
Hmm?
Kennedy (she/her) (25:31.857)
For sure. Bev was one of them. So I definitely can relate. And another example I have is, you know, feeling completely and utterly threatened by Seven of Nine and being like, who asked for Borg Barbie? And then learning not only what Jerry Ryan had to go through, but going back and looking as an adult, yeah, at Seven and what she went through.
Rhiannon (25:41.997)
Mm.
Yeah.
Cal Macdonald (25:45.037)
Yeah.
Rhiannon (25:49.355)
Hmm.
Cal Macdonald (25:50.602)
Yes, I’ve heard.
Kennedy (she/her) (25:59.775)
and realize that she’s been groomed her entire life, including Janeway, I just feel like…
Kennedy (she/her) (26:13.17)
We should, we ought to be challenged by how we’ve been socialized when it comes to new and evolving things every day. You should be running up against walls that either were put in front of you or that you put there yourself, preventing you from perceiving things from other people’s point of view every day. Every person that you talk to, you should constantly be looking for that. And…
Manny (26:25.653)
you
Kennedy (she/her) (26:41.256)
It wasn’t until I was in a space with all women where I really got a chance to hear from not only other people’s perspectives, but also everybody else’s experiences in femininity is crucial to understanding different things. Like, Jerry Ryan’s a beautiful woman. She’s built the way she’s built. And there’s literally nothing she can do about that. So why do we reduce her?
Rhiannon (26:52.948)
Mm-hmm. That’s so important. That’s so important.
Rhiannon (27:00.536)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
No.
Kennedy (she/her) (27:09.3)
to what her image is when Seven was not only a victim until she joined the Fenris Rangers, point blank period, two, she was also fucking brilliant, freaking brilliant, freaking brilliant. She was freaking brilliant. So…
Rhiannon (27:17.048)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (27:23.0)
But it’s interesting isn’t it, how we kind of, our ideals feel threatened by that or even our own experiences and it’s like sometimes it is uncomfortable and actually then to be able to kind of see it back and be like, actually that’s a really interesting new take and it just brings joy to that next time you watch it that you go like, wow I can see a different part of the vision now. And I think, no, no, no, you please, please carry on.
Cal Macdonald (27:26.76)
Yeah.
Kennedy (she/her) (27:38.272)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (27:45.876)
Yeah.
Cal Macdonald (27:48.119)
Yeah, yeah, because it was, sorry,
Kennedy (she/her) (27:49.224)
I also feel like… I’m sorry, go ahead. I also feel like it… the reason why it resonates with people… Sorry?
Rhiannon (27:58.093)
You’re right.
Cal Macdonald (27:58.541)
Oh carry on, sorry. No, I was letting you carry on.
Kennedy (she/her) (28:00.181)
Sorry, just, you etiquette. You learn to shut up when someone’s starting a… Because I hate talking over people. It challenges… Basically, I think it all comes from a place of a construct of scarcity, right? If we’re all socialized to think that if one person is excelling in a thing that there’s no room for anybody else to excel at the thing, especially not in their own way. So, you know, this person…
Manny (28:04.114)
you
Rhiannon (28:15.512)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (28:25.24)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (28:28.244)
becomes a focal point of envy, of resentment, of all these things that they can’t help or change in any way. And people don’t sit with that and think, this is me projecting or this is my interpretation of whatever is going on here. I need to, basically you can tell who stayed in the house during the quarantine and pulled tarot, sat with crystals, baths, worked out, knitted, make bread, whatever. And who went out on vacation and, you know,
Rhiannon (28:42.626)
Yeah.
Cal Macdonald (28:49.664)
Yeah
Rhiannon (28:51.35)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah.
Kennedy (she/her) (28:58.3)
act as a spreader for diseases. You know what saying? You can truly tell who learned to sit with themselves and learned to battle the things that they didn’t have the time to confront before. And who didn’t.
Manny (28:58.898)
Okay.
Rhiannon (29:13.534)
Yeah, think you’re honestly, think you’re really right there. think that, I mean, as I said, I work in healthcare and did so during the pandemic as well. And actually to watch the difference anytime. It’s like, but to watch people and actually how much has changed in the last five years, know, like obviously, you know, again, you know, Star Trek.
Kennedy (she/her) (29:24.928)
Thank you for your service.
Rhiannon (29:39.382)
goes through many different things and you watch all these people pull together and in the darkest moments, know, most people come through at the clinch and they want the best for humanity. And then to watch that almost happen in real time and maybe go in a different and to see people who you wouldn’t expect to go in such a different direction. You’re like, we did, we all just see the same thing. Like we were so close. We were so close. And it’s just, I think that in itself, you just go,
Kennedy (she/her) (29:47.445)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (29:57.194)
We’re so close.
Cal Macdonald (29:59.223)
Yeah, yes, we’re getting there.
Rhiannon (30:05.676)
Like it’s shame for some folks and for others actually I got to see the absolute best. And then you just go, wow. Like, you know, there’s some people that really took that and run with it. And for that I’ll always be so grateful. Like, you know, a hundred percent.
Manny (30:09.713)
Yeah, my microphone’s not working. I’ve been speaking the whole time.
Kennedy (she/her) (30:11.592)
Mm-hmm. For sure.
Kennedy (she/her) (30:19.093)
Agreed.
Cal Macdonald (30:22.199)
going to bring in Martin, you’ve either been, you’re either frozen or been waiting very patiently there to say something, it’s hard to tell. Have you got a question there?
Manny (30:38.576)
And you lot have just been blanking me, but I’ve been waiting patiently. But first of all, I would like to say welcome to Kennedy, of course, but also welcome to Rhiannon, because as you say, Cal, you know, it’s easy to not be as inclusive as we should be. I hate to even say as inclusive because it should just be the norm and not something that we’re trying to make.
Kennedy (she/her) (30:50.08)
Thank you.
Manny (31:08.18)
you know, an inclusive thing of and but it’s great. And when Kennedy mentioned there about about Jerry Ryan, you know, being basically groomed into that position because of her looks. And it reminded me of the the blondie song, RIP HER TO SHREDS, you know, she’s so tall, let’s rip her to shreds with the pink mascara, all that kind of stuff.
Kennedy (she/her) (31:34.974)
Hmm.
Manny (31:38.223)
for no good reason other than she’s been upheld to that what she’s portraying. And if she was anything like that, it’s because she’s been made that way by this world. I would like to say, Jenny Ryan, awesome. But I’ve seen that a couple of Comic Cons. also, mod, when you see talking about stereotypes and being grim, I’ve watched a few of these reality programs, these kind of a…
Kennedy (she/her) (31:51.008)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (31:52.086)
Hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (31:57.322)
She’s phenomenal.
Manny (32:07.957)
I don’t know you’ve seen Alone or Naked and Afraid, but these kind of things where celebrities are challenged or even normal people are challenged to go and do these things. very often there’s like Mr. Ken, know, Barbie’s boyfriend doll, Mr. Action Man. then there’s a few other guys and then there’s like a woman who knows all about herbs and everything. She’s going to knock this.
Cal Macdonald (32:27.021)
Oh yeah. Oh yeah, I forgot to remember the name.
Rhiannon (32:28.472)
and
Manny (32:38.122)
And quite often, or occasionally, there’s somebody like a model, a female model, not male models for some reason, but a female model. And everybody thinks they’re going to be out in a couple of days. And they’re very quiet. And very often on these programs, they demonstrate what is, of course, to be expected, that they’re normal people. And they have a, when they have the same opportunities,
Everybody else used to do something a little bit different. Actually, most of them do better than the rest of the people on these things. So good on it for not accepting these stereotypes. We shouldn’t take these stereotypes even for people like you’ve got your boss or your colleague at work and you think to yourself, know, I know what they’re like at home. And often that’s not the case. They’re not like that.
Kennedy (she/her) (33:27.679)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (33:32.14)
Mm-hmm.
Manny (33:35.66)
The only way to do that is by talking to them. And I love this thing here. I’ve been quiet because I’ve just been sitting back watching like an episode of Women at War or something. It was great to listen to Rhiannon and Kennedy just thrashing it out there, putting the word to rights. And I’m an expert at listening to women put the word to rights because
Kennedy (she/her) (33:40.156)
Mm-hmm. Conversations are important.
Rhiannon (33:40.308)
Yeah, definitely.
Cal Macdonald (33:56.567)
Yeah.
Rhiannon (34:00.842)
it
Manny (34:04.307)
You know, I’ve got my spouse girl and three daughters and a granddaughter and I’m surrounded by females. I’ve I’ve I’m blessed and I’ve learned I’ve learned to be quiet and listen until I’m told to speak, you know, like like like I did on the show today.
Rhiannon (34:09.12)
Excellent.
Kennedy (she/her) (34:11.944)
You’ve been blessed.
Rhiannon (34:13.368)
I was gonna say you already, you’re doing the world a service.
Cal Macdonald (34:13.782)
Yes.
Cal Macdonald (34:20.471)
Yeah, I know is
Rhiannon (34:22.872)
And you know, we love to see it. No, okay, okay. Yeah, And apply it. It’s to have such shining, yeah, shining examples in your life. 100%.
Kennedy (she/her) (34:25.664)
And to take what you’ve learned back to your community so that you can inform the others who are not as privileged as yourself to have such strong, important women surrounding you and influencing your growth as a better human being. It’s just…
Manny (34:30.407)
Exactly, yes.
Cal Macdonald (34:30.903)
Yeah. Yeah.
Manny (34:39.612)
And it’s great to see that, like Kennedy saying, you were brought up with your mom watching the TOS, know, the original, the original CDs, and then you go through all the other CDs and as geeks, and I think we’re all geeks here, okay, let’s accept that fact, right? Geeks are drawn to things like sci-fi programs and stuff, but especially Star Trek, because it’s made up.
Rhiannon (34:56.856)
That’s a fair, I think that’s a fair evaluation.
Cal Macdonald (34:57.205)
Yeah, yeah. That’s guilty as charged.
Manny (35:09.853)
But it could all be real, know, like say Buffy, which you mentioned, and I think Kennedy Cal is going to have a question for you to join. we think we’ve been talking about that recently, but the Star Trek thing always comes back to. It’s not like there’s no magic thing, it’s always like a real situation that has to be resolved and it’s always reflective and I’m always amazed to come back when you say you go through it and.
Rhiannon (35:12.28)
Hmm.
Cal Macdonald (35:19.581)
Ha
Rhiannon (35:32.685)
Hmm.
Manny (35:38.941)
You had Voyager, which I’m sure was very pertinent to you because, possibly not, because there was a female lead. I don’t know. Is that a thing because there was the female captain? Was that a reason why it was a pertinent or just the timeline that…
Kennedy (she/her) (35:54.185)
was, you know, it took me growing up to appreciate Janeway a little bit more. I think what resonated most with me at that point in my life with Voyager was the fact that they were figuring it out by themselves on the way through unknown circumstances and everybody was just doing the best they could. And as a preteen whose parents were divorcing, like
Manny (36:10.117)
Mm.
Cal Macdonald (36:12.471)
Yeah.
Kennedy (she/her) (36:24.372)
that whole innovation despite isolation thing really grounded me in ways that I wasn’t expecting and also really probably wasn’t always aware of until later on as well. But also seeing
You know, I’m not that not the next generation or Deep Space Nine weren’t inclusive because they were especially Deep Space Nine. But, you know, seeing Tubok and Harry Kim and Balana exist in their intersections while in a Starfleet uniform gave me this sense of validation that you can come from wherever.
be skilled in whatever, it’s your commitment to the goal that is what will distinguish you from others. And I just needed that because I knew who I was when was 12 years old. You know what mean? Like, who knows anything at 12?
Rhiannon (37:21.495)
Hmm.
Cal Macdonald (37:30.358)
Yeah, I know you.
Manny (37:30.637)
Well, curious you should say that because you do. You mentioned something there. I can’t remember what it was. But the appeal of the Star Trek things going through, they’re always doing something. And Discovery, at the time, a lot of people were against Discovery. A lot of traditional Star Trek fans would like to everything before that. even myself.
Rhiannon (37:32.322)
But it’s.
Kennedy (she/her) (37:52.436)
Hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (37:57.396)
Mm-hmm.
Manny (37:58.817)
I thought I liked it, but it wasn’t the best. But then I sat down and examined some of the things in it and thought, is this true to the original? Are they holding up the ideals? Yes, they are holding up the ideals. Are they pushing out, making us kind of push the boundaries a little bit? Yes, they are, for sure. And that’s what the original one was all about. And every time I see a new series coming out and I go back to that, I think I’m always amazed.
Rhiannon (38:19.511)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (38:23.508)
Mm-hmm.
Manny (38:28.704)
that the first series ever actually got on because they pushed so many boundaries but it hit the spot for people all across the world, adults at the time but also youngsters and I think any youngster, you’re saying the 12 year old you don’t know who you are, there’s a phrase you know give me the child at seven and I’ll show you the man but I think kids and especially geeks for some reason can always see
Kennedy (she/her) (38:35.765)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (38:41.566)
Yeah.
Manny (38:58.113)
Kids can see what’s right and wrong a lot more easily before you’re programmed into your adult life and almost any kid watching that likes a Star Trek can see what’s right and wrong and they see an example of somebody saying that’s wrong even if they’re living in a circumstance where everything is wrong around them and they’re gradually accepting it they see something like that and they go no I was right that kind of stuff is wrong you know it’s spot on.
Rhiannon (39:06.498)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (39:26.806)
And that is, I think it’s amazing to have that kind of, know, validation in the media around you, it? It’s like, as we’re talking about like formative things, actually to have your kids watching something like Star Trek, where it is like, you know, there’s complex themes, there’s a lot of emotions going on, there’s a lot of different bit, but actually for them to be able to say, hey, you know what, this is a good message and this is something that you can carry forward is, it is important to be able to see that.
Kennedy (she/her) (39:36.49)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (39:52.351)
Yeah.
Rhiannon (39:52.49)
It’s great that it gives that opportunity for, as we said, like such a range of ages. You could watch it through your whole life and see something different.
Kennedy (she/her) (39:59.475)
And because it’s an established property, like it’s the gift that keeps on giving. So someone being new to it has, I I envy pokes who are new to Star Trek about now. Cause you’ve like 50 some years of content to catch up on. Like for the first time, I watching next generations, best of both worlds, cliffhanger episodes.
Rhiannon (40:02.487)
Mm.
Rhiannon (40:09.112)
Mm.
Cal Macdonald (40:13.737)
Yes.
Rhiannon (40:14.616)
I’ve got so much to do.
Cal Macdonald (40:28.557)
for the very first time.
Kennedy (she/her) (40:29.952)
Like, people nowadays will never know what that summer was like. That summer was awful because, like, what do you mean? What do you mean? What do mean? What do you mean? I think we were all terribly vexed. All of us.
Cal Macdonald (40:33.939)
No, that was pain. Yeah.
Rhiannon (40:40.056)
What do you mean?
Cal Macdonald (40:41.463)
He’s going to fire up a card. What’s what’s happening here?
Rhiannon (40:51.766)
I just, do you not find though that sometimes this is a slight tangent, but that with like streaming services and things like that, you’re never gonna get that quite, like that genuine like shock value of, hang on a second, I’m not gonna be able to find this out for another second, like for another week. Like what, how am I supposed to live? Like what happens in between now and then?
Manny (41:08.736)
You
Kennedy (she/her) (41:10.174)
I mean, people who’ve grown up in the modern era of media distribution will never know what it’s like to wait a week unless that’s the release format of the series. So you have to constantly, constantly keep it moving. You have to. Even contextually within Star Trek, if people weren’t constantly pushing boundaries,
Rhiannon (41:22.296)
Hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (41:39.979)
How would the Federation have been able to A, rope in the Klingons, B, rope in the Romulans to defeat the Dominion? How? How? How are they going to do that without being willing to compromise to an extent? How are we getting home from the literal opposite side of everything that we know in this ship that’s a prototype and can get sick, by the way, with a Tlaxian guide?
Rhiannon (41:51.628)
beats me.
Cal Macdonald (41:52.874)
Yeah.
Rhiannon (42:04.472)
Yeah.
Cal Macdonald (42:05.805)
by cheese, cheese will make it.
Kennedy (she/her) (42:10.508)
Half of my crew are criminals. How are we going to do this unless we’re all willing to compromise? I forget the tangent I was going on there. Dang it.
Rhiannon (42:17.677)
Mm-hmm.
Manny (42:21.865)
Great, I’m glad I’m not the only one.
Rhiannon (42:25.56)
That’s okay. I think it’s, you know, it’s, is, think the sort of the root of it, isn’t it? Yeah, welcome to praying and that kind of proportion.
Kennedy (she/her) (42:25.706)
Dang it, it’ll come back to me eventually. the necessity of being welcome to change, being comfortable, being uncomfortable. Yes, and perpetually being ready to have your mind getting changed because otherwise you grow stagnant. And as Carl Sagan put it best, extinction is the rule. Survival is the exception. You either go extinct because you can’t keep up or you survive.
Cal Macdonald (42:25.847)
Right.
Rhiannon (42:42.06)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (42:55.884)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Manny (42:56.683)
Did you guys hear that Kennedy just said Carl Sagan never love it even more
Kennedy (she/her) (43:01.843)
Haha
I love Carl Sagan. He could read me the phone book and it would contain multitudes. Millions and billions of words.
Manny (43:07.416)
that was a good impersonation.
Rhiannon (43:07.49)
You
Cal Macdonald (43:08.077)
Billions, billions, billions.
Manny (43:14.287)
Hahaha!
Rhiannon (43:14.402)
You
Kennedy (she/her) (43:19.946)
deeply soothing.
Manny (43:21.539)
I’ve got the Carl Sagan, the original book of Cosmos signed by Carl on the inside. It’s brilliant. I might have written that by myself and forged it, but it’s still signed by him.
Cal Macdonald (43:28.674)
Ooh, nice.
Kennedy (she/her) (43:29.472)
that’s amazing.
I mean, know, tomatoes, tomatoes.
Cal Macdonald (43:35.949)
Yeah. This was this very simple question for you. If you could recommend one episode for everyone to
Manny (43:43.503)
Now, can I interject?
Rhiannon (43:47.0)
Mmm.
Manny (43:49.499)
Hmm.
Cal Macdonald (43:50.881)
All right. I think we’ll go to Kennedy first, put all the pressure on our guest.
Rhiannon (43:55.66)
The first one.
Kennedy (she/her) (43:57.345)
My fiance is, hold on, my fiance is in the backyard listening to us and was just like, hmm, when you asked me that.
Cal Macdonald (44:02.615)
All right.
Rhiannon (44:05.479)
Yeah.
Kennedy (she/her) (44:07.376)
jeez. Is this one episode the introductory episode to track for this person? Are they new? Are they… Because there’s a bunch of questions. There’s a bunch of questions. Because there’s probably…
Cal Macdonald (44:08.663)
because, well, my answer’s always easy to this.
Cal Macdonald (44:17.259)
I don’t know, just an episode you think everyone should watch. Yeah.
Rhiannon (44:22.104)
Maybe if we…
Cal Macdonald (44:26.253)
See, for me, if it’s someone who’s never seen it, I just want to show the brilliance on this. For me, it’d be Far Beyond the Stars. Far Beyond the Stars, because it’s just monumentally amazing, that episode. And like when Avery Brooks breaks down at the end, I am in floods of tears when his voice starts, yeah, yeah. Like that, I cannot keep it all together when he has that breakdown at the end.
Kennedy (she/her) (44:28.928)
Take me out to the hollow suite.
Rhiannon (44:32.642)
Okay.
Kennedy (she/her) (44:33.436)
as a baseball person.
Kennedy (she/her) (44:40.637)
for sure. That’s a good one.
Kennedy (she/her) (44:45.994)
That would be the second episode I would suggest to people.
Kennedy (she/her) (44:53.79)
Yeah, Far Beyond the Stars is a difficult one to watch, I’ve found.
Cal Macdonald (44:54.669)
And think you probably, and you could probably relate to what the characters going through there more than we would.
Martin, we’ll go with you then. sorry, Kennedy.
Kennedy (she/her) (45:05.982)
Yeah, Far Beyond the Stars is so poignant that it’s difficult. No, it’s all fine. Far Beyond the Stars is, I think, I consider that to be the Deep Space Nine moving, since I never got a proper one. It is so poignant and so, you know, nail on the head that it can be difficult to watch at times.
Rhiannon (45:22.136)
Mm.
Kennedy (she/her) (45:34.037)
because you want to watch it as a period piece, it’s immaculate, right? Everybody is just hitting it out of the park. But everybody is so good at it that, you know, I have issue, I have difficulties looking at Rene Apojonois the same. I have difficulties looking at Jeffrey Combs and, geez, Mark Olimo’s
Cal Macdonald (46:00.269)
It’s Mark Alemu.
Kennedy (she/her) (46:02.378)
performances on the heels of that because they were so good. Their bigoted ways were so convincing that it felt like, you even acting? Like, what’s up? So like knowing that they’re, you know, not like that is comforting. But yes, that is definitely on the list of things that that people should get into. I say second, because it is heavy, right? And it’s not a casual watch and it shouldn’t be treated as such. So I like to start with
Take me out to the Hollow Suite, because it’s educational. You learn about baseball. It’s fun, and we love a good episode with whimsy, especially in the middle of a war. You know, let’s go Niners. And…
Rhiannon (46:34.743)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (46:41.272)
Got it.
Cal Macdonald (46:42.515)
And I’ve got to say just, no sorry, I’ve just got to say this and Worf’s death to the opposition is just priceless.
Kennedy (she/her) (46:56.672)
Perfect. Perfect. Did you know that Max Grodenshchik actually was a semi-professional ball player and was so good that they asked him to start playing left-handed and he was still too much… Like he was out there doing batting practice and like running drills before rehearsals and people were like, what are you doing? And he’s like, it’s baseball. You gotta warm up. What are you doing? What do you mean? What am I doing? So I just like them taking this…
Rhiannon (46:58.626)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (47:17.618)
I love that. I love that.
Kennedy (she/her) (47:24.666)
very American thing and applying it to the future as a vehicle for distraction from very real, very heavy issues that all of these characters are experiencing in different ways and just giving them an opportunity to play and to explore and to fail and to get better and to bond. And so what? We got our asses handed to us. So what? So what?
Rhiannon (47:26.712)
Mm.
Rhiannon (47:32.952)
Mmm. Mmm.
Rhiannon (47:46.336)
And I think it just kind of, it just brings it almost like that kind of relatable element back. It’s like, yeah, they’re in all of these things that us in this century might not, you know, it’s kind of still out of reach. feels like this futuristic, but it’s even like, you know, the same as us watching stuff about things that happened hundreds of years ago. go, they were just people and they were just trying to get by half the time and the rest of the time trying to do the right thing. Mostly, like, you know, it’s, it’s just that kind of, I don’t know, it’s nice connection element.
Kennedy (she/her) (48:02.656)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (48:07.796)
Yeah.
Kennedy (she/her) (48:12.906)
For sure. If, if, can Kira Nerys overthrow a fascist government? Yes. Can she, can she destroy people that are three times her size just because they looked at her wrong? Yes. Can she get a hit to save her life? No. She cannot. And that is okay.
Rhiannon (48:20.94)
Yeah.
Cal Macdonald (48:21.854)
yeah, yeah.
Rhiannon (48:26.892)
Yeah.
No.
Rhiannon (48:33.744)
Mm-hmm, it’s okay. Multi-faceted.
Kennedy (she/her) (48:36.832)
Yeah, particularly I like that episode because it teaches people that it’s okay to fail. Like you cannot get better without failure, especially as women and being Black and just being in a marginalized community. We are consistently taught to not accept failure because the stakes are against us in so many other areas that you don’t have time. Okay, you made a mistake, cool. Learn from it immediately. Don’t make it again so that you can continue. Right. And it’s unrealistic.
Rhiannon (48:41.43)
Yeah.
Rhiannon (48:46.7)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (48:59.486)
Mm-hmm. Don’t do it again, because if you do it again, yeah, like that’s…
Kennedy (she/her) (49:06.432)
It can act as a, you know, it’s an advantage in certain instances, but it can also be a disadvantage because of all of these other things. I…
Rhiannon (49:16.072)
it doesn’t allow you that space to acknowledge you feel it you know it’s like this kind of there’s no then breathing room it’s like okay you’ve done this that’s it you know you kind of you move on you do it and you do it better next time rather than like allowing that space for a little bit of like how you might feel about you know i mean like kind of the feelings within that i guess
Kennedy (she/her) (49:22.015)
Yeah
Kennedy (she/her) (49:27.476)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (49:34.336)
for sure. Agreed.
Manny (49:35.523)
That’s true, you know, we’re encouraged to be all, you watch programs like The Bourne Identity and you think you’ve got to learn fast, move on from your mistakes, don’t make them again, but in reality human beings are quite slow learners. We like to make mistakes lots of times until it really hurts before we learn from it and move on a little bit.
Cal Macdonald (49:36.077)
So.
Rhiannon (49:47.436)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (49:55.276)
For hundreds of years. Yeah. 100%.
Cal Macdonald (49:57.805)
So I’m going to put that question to Martin and…
Kennedy (she/her) (49:59.051)
For sure. But undoubtedly. I have a question for you all. It’s not, it’s not Trek related, but it is.
Rhiannon (50:06.584)
Hmm.
Cal Macdonald (50:10.925)
Carry on. the steely is quite bad. I was just going to put the question to Martin and Rhiannon about the one episode of Trek you would recommend to someone. If they just said, what’s the Star Trek? And you had to give them an episode to watch.
Kennedy (she/her) (50:12.542)
No, go ahead, what were you saying?
Kennedy (she/her) (50:23.328)
Hmm
Rhiannon (50:30.872)
Now, mine is a very short answer and it is very simple. And it is because it was Data’s dream and it was when Spot was sat in the captain’s chair. And I remember this, like just as a child, I really, really vividly remember it. And I just remember seeing Spot sat in the chair and thinking, the cat! To the point where I have a ginger Tomcat now.
Kennedy (she/her) (50:55.456)
You
Kennedy (she/her) (50:59.136)
Hmm
Rhiannon (50:59.16)
His name is Hamish, but he’s entirely inspired. He’s not called Spark because he’s a he, but like, so that’s just a person, just in the totally emotional aspects. I just love seeing the cat being such a cat, like sitting in the cat’s in the chair being like, yeah, this is my seat. I’m like, yeah. So it’s just a purely emotional one for me, I’m afraid.
Cal Macdonald (51:09.077)
Alright, that works.
Kennedy (she/her) (51:19.828)
I always, when the ship was undergoing, you know, duress, either like engine failure or any type of whatever the inertial dampeners were compromised, I was always, always, always worried about Spot. Cause what do you mean? Like, where does Spot hide when things go left? Like, is she okay? Cause you know, Data’s not good at feelings. So like,
Cal Macdonald (51:20.343)
and
Manny (51:30.607)
Yeah. Okay.
Rhiannon (51:35.032)
You can’t
Rhiannon (51:42.68)
You know, I think she just… yeah.
Rhiannon (51:49.846)
But that’s it. Although she is not sentient and she does not comprehend, know, nonetheless consider you a true and valued friend. I could honestly, I could cry. Yeah.
Kennedy (she/her) (51:50.046)
I just worry for a spot sometimes.
Kennedy (she/her) (51:57.941)
I just, you know, I worry for Spot. I worry about Jones on Alien. You know, don’t bring your cat to space, guys.
Rhiannon (52:10.518)
I just, but they’re obviously, they must be pretty hardy, like, you know what mean? Like, obviously they’ve not got, they’ve not got anything to chase around. So it’s like, I’m like, don’t you I’ll remember that.
Kennedy (she/her) (52:16.376)
Don’t bring your cat to space. I don’t know if Archer should have brought that beagle out there, honestly. Where was he going for walks? Who was cleaning up after this? I just, do we really want to tax our environmental systems with pet matter? Do we really want that for us? Don’t bring your cat to space.
Rhiannon (52:24.576)
That’s right.
Rhiannon (52:31.52)
I was like, you hear that Hamish? You’re not coming to space, okay? You’re staying at home.
Cal Macdonald (52:40.467)
say talking about good choice for a space pet O’Brien probably had the best one the tarantula said that’s very low maintenance and very easy to keep in space I would imagine.
Kennedy (she/her) (52:51.7)
and
Cal Macdonald (52:53.045)
Right, Martin, you’re one episode you could recommend to anyone.
Kennedy (she/her) (52:54.096)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Manny (53:01.163)
That’s almost like asking somebody what’s their favorite song. It kind of depends what mood you’re in and how many hundred thousands you have. And to say your one episode of Star Trek, I’d just say, well, watch the whole series three times and then we’ll start talking about it, you know. But I can tell you the one it’s not.
Tasha Yar going into the black slime and it’s too soon to talk about it so I can’t talk about it anymore. That’s enough. It’s too soon.
Kennedy (she/her) (53:34.164)
That episode, frickin’ Argus, what a jerk face. What a sad sack. Like, I hope you evaporate and I hope it’s slow. Like, I hope the boiling point is so low that you feel every single solitary second of your evisceration. Cause what is wrong with you? Why would you do that? Ugh.
Manny (53:56.583)
I hold the script responsible because it was far too soon. They built her up as a main character and then… TILT THE RUG! Don’t talk about it! That’s enough! Move on!
Kennedy (she/her) (54:06.974)
Well, here’s how you honor Tasha. Do you know why that happened?
Manny (54:11.275)
Probably should have got another job or something, did you? In real life?
Cal Macdonald (54:12.396)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (54:14.276)
No, Denise Crosby was immensely fed up and frustrated with the fact that she didn’t have a lot to do. And all of it was, in which she did have substantial screen time, it was extremely sexualized. And she just had a lot of problematic interactions, you know, behind the scenes and in the writer’s room specifically, like developing her character. And she just elected to leave. And not for nothing.
Cal Macdonald (54:15.61)
no.
Manny (54:22.984)
yeah?
Rhiannon (54:24.086)
Really?
Rhiannon (54:28.482)
Hmm.
Rhiannon (54:34.22)
Mmm.
Manny (54:38.373)
Okay.
Rhiannon (54:38.84)
That’s just such a shame.
Kennedy (she/her) (54:43.06)
Gates McFadden left after the first season for the same reason. She was tired of the same thing. So, you know, and I believe that’s why Jennifer Lee-Ann, who played Kes, left as well. like, learning and, my God, I’m forgetting Terry Farrell. That’s why she left. Because Brandon Raga and them.
Rhiannon (54:46.84)
Hmm.
Rhiannon (54:56.439)
Really?
Rhiannon (55:02.558)
Mm-hmm.
Manny (55:03.271)
I was just, I was goodness.
Kennedy (she/her) (55:05.542)
Yeah, they would march her into the office when you know how how Jadzia’s uniform during the wartime grays was explicitly tight on her, looked like she was poured into that uniform. They would bring her in for costume fittings with different sizes of water bra to determine which look was appropriate for the screen and which one wasn’t. That’s why she left. So like you have every right to be upset about
Rhiannon (55:16.248)
Mm.
Rhiannon (55:29.826)
Dude.
Kennedy (she/her) (55:32.234)
Tasha deserved a lot better than that. And honestly, so did everybody else that I mentioned too. Again, when you take creative control out of the hands of one specific demographic and include other people, intersectional diversity in infinite combinations is the only way we can do better. Justice for Tasha Gar.
Rhiannon (55:52.6)
Mm-hmm.
Manny (55:54.3)
Absolutely.
Rhiannon (55:56.44)
Because sometimes as well, it’s, and I think maybe sort of in the same, same universe, but like sometimes the sexualizing of a character can be an empowering thing. And it’s like, I remember, again, I think this was an episode you guys were talking about the man trap. And with the…
Kennedy (she/her) (56:08.448)
Sure.
Kennedy (she/her) (56:15.496)
Mm.
Rhiannon (56:18.904)
And with her and the really, really hot guy, I’d forget his name, I apologize. And it’s like, but sometimes like not having like an asexual, asexuality in a character, but like a sexualized character can be like an, like it can be an interesting thing and an engaging thing with the plot and the people and things like that. But actually, like, that’s not the whole thing, you know, that’s not the whole plot. That’s not the reason why that character is there. And it’s certainly not why that actor is being put through, you know, like being put through that in their job. Like,
Kennedy (she/her) (56:22.4)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (56:45.14)
Yeah.
Rhiannon (56:47.128)
So there’s ways to do that that are engaging and rather than damaging to both fictional members as well as the cast.
Kennedy (she/her) (56:57.632)
Sure, like a person, a character can be sexualized, but if that’s the only element of their entire personality, then it’s just not good storytelling to take a, to coin a phrase from the neckbeard crowd is just poor writing.
Rhiannon (57:04.182)
Yeah, it’s like, you’ve missed it. No, you’ve missed it.
Cal Macdonald (57:05.719)
Hmm.
Rhiannon (57:12.12)
It is poor writing, because there’s no writing involved. There’s just water balloon bras and that is not writing.
Cal Macdonald (57:12.695)
Bad writing, bad writing, bad writing.
Kennedy (she/her) (57:14.676)
Bad fighting!
Kennedy (she/her) (57:19.646)
That’s just not appropriate in any circumstance.
Rhiannon (57:21.751)
Yeah.
Manny (57:22.732)
I mean, it’s true that the human species is driven by sexual desire and, you know, the positive and the minus, the yin and the yang, and that’s a huge part of life consciously and subconsciously. So it would be wrong not to have the odd sexy character in it, by which I mean female as well as male. But when I was at a convention one time and Terry Farrell was there, and it’s only when you’re there.
Rhiannon (57:30.252)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (57:40.962)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (57:42.784)
Sure.
Kennedy (she/her) (57:50.887)
Mm-hmm. She’s a gem.
Manny (57:51.619)
and hear them talking kind of, know, off screen, off the record. And she was talking about these kind of problems of not getting the same pay and asking why and just being blown off for it, you know, in the same way. But I really want an answer. you get what you’re given kind of thing. So clear off. You’re a woman, you know, stuff, stuff you. But I’ve heard that guys quite like watching sexy females like, you know, like, say
Rhiannon (58:02.328)
you
Kennedy (she/her) (58:09.022)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (58:10.829)
Mmm.
Manny (58:20.005)
Seven of Nine or Sequoia Green but that girls don’t really like watching a sexy guy character. Is that true ladies?
Rhiannon (58:22.488)
Mm.
Kennedy (she/her) (58:30.324)
I mean, it depends on what their identity is. If she’s not into men at all, then, you know, no.
Rhiannon (58:30.666)
I… Yeah.
Manny (58:33.997)
I’m looking into your eyes now, tell the truth.
Cal Macdonald (58:37.965)
You
Rhiannon (58:38.292)
It’s honestly, I think it just like it kind of just depends on isn’t it because like there are certain there are certain fandoms and there’s certain things that like I’ll be looking at I’ll go like Objectively, I’ll be like that is a that is a handsome looking person like whether it is a man or a woman like, know I myself am bisexual. So it’s like actually I complain to a lot of sort of roles within that I’m sorry if you can hear my cat meowing by the way Hamish caught wind that he wasn’t invited to space and he’s now come in the room
Kennedy (she/her) (58:42.325)
Yeah.
Kennedy (she/her) (58:51.061)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (58:58.88)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (59:02.814)
Kamish was like, what do mean I can’t come to space? Hold up, wait a minute. Wait a minute, excuse me. Where do I apply for an appeal?
Cal Macdonald (59:03.405)
Yeah.
Rhiannon (59:04.394)
Yeah, he’s he’s now complaining about it. So I’m sorry if you can hear him in the background. Literally, he wants to see all the people in space. That’s that’s that’s what he’s about. But yeah, so I think it’s like it’s it’s okay for that to be a part of your experience of the show. Because as you say, like, you know, again, not to keep harking it back, but because I watched our check as a child, and I’ve then refound it again as an adult rights as a huge part of my probably quite, you know, like
Kennedy (she/her) (59:27.413)
Mm-hmm.
Manny (59:30.946)
you
Rhiannon (59:32.824)
informative years that that’s not going to play into you. But you can watch something and be like, that is that is a good looking person or like, you know, I find that person like sort of engaging in a sexual way like to visually to look at. But I think as well, so many elements comes into what you find a person attractive, right? It’s that for me personally, it’s that empathy, it’s their intelligence, it’s that sort of it’s all those kind of like layers. And so I think to sort of say,
Kennedy (she/her) (59:34.996)
Amen.
Kennedy (she/her) (59:45.461)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (01:00:02.454)
you’re never going to find any of these people. There’s just so many layers in that, just not just is that person generic or maybe generically is wrong word to look at, to look at them and go, you are hot. It’s also like we need to maybe deconstruct what we consider that to be as well as in a conversation of is it sort of the physical attributes about that person you find attractive and why? Has your opinion of that been, for example, whitewashed?
Kennedy (she/her) (01:00:17.856)
Mmm.
Rhiannon (01:00:29.824)
like, you why are you finding this person attractive more than this person or what is it that you find engaging? So actually for some people who don’t necessarily experience sexual desire in the same way, they might find emotional things more appealing. Like, I guess it just totally depends on the audience, I guess.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:00:29.844)
Mm.
Cal Macdonald (01:00:42.657)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:00:42.848)
sure.
But I think the bigger underlying catalyst for that though, Martin, is the fact that, know, feminine sexuality has been villainized for historic amounts of time. So there is always, always, always an element of risk. There’s always an element of danger to being
quote unquote attractive to being a sexualized individual because there are usually menfolk who will see that as a threat, see there’s a reason to come to your house, see that as a reason to berate you in the comments, see that as a reason to conduct themselves in very aggressive and violent ways just because you look a certain way. the, yeah, the risk is greater.
Rhiannon (01:01:25.95)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (01:01:38.156)
that doesn’t necessarily fit their prescript, like.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:01:41.921)
for us to be perceived as sexual than it is for men to be perceived as sexual. I was just watching the documentary about the fall of Abercrombie and Fitch and how aggressively white it was and how it really was kind of like gay art in a really cool subversive way, even if it wasn’t for the right reasons. All of those models, all of those male models specifically.
Rhiannon (01:01:44.248)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (01:01:54.072)
Mm.
Rhiannon (01:01:58.429)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:02:06.932)
They don’t have to worry about somebody following them home because they saw them in a magazine or on an ad somewhere and, you know, putting them in real physical danger because they’re found attractive. So, you know, there’s social elements to it that prevent the reverse from occurring as well.
Rhiannon (01:02:10.082)
following them home.
Rhiannon (01:02:14.369)
huge
Rhiannon (01:02:18.551)
Mm-hmm.
Cal Macdonald (01:02:19.851)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rhiannon (01:02:21.592)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (01:02:28.632)
Hmm.
Cal Macdonald (01:02:29.151)
Yeah, if you want one really, really good example of what you just said is the NeverEnders story and the tale of the two child stars, a trio character and the one who played the Empress. And it’s very disturbing what she had to go through and she was only 11 at the time. It’s, yeah, that was freaky when I watched that documentary about it.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:02:31.178)
sad to say.
Rhiannon (01:02:32.557)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:02:42.313)
Hmm
Rhiannon (01:02:42.36)
Mmm.
Rhiannon (01:02:46.21)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:02:46.9)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (01:02:51.137)
Yeah.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:02:52.081)
Yeah, it’s,
Kennedy (she/her) (01:02:56.318)
I watch a lot of pro wrestling now. And every once in a while, well, I mean, I watched it back in the nineties for a hot second and then I stopped and then I came back last year. We hear every once in a while about athletes in the women’s division having to deal with someone showing up at their house or at the training center or at their car. But you don’t hear about
Rhiannon (01:02:58.392)
Hmm.
Rhiannon (01:03:17.367)
Yeah.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:03:23.082)
people in the men’s division having to worry about someone showing up at their house, showing up at the gym, showing up at their car. So like, yes, you can overtly sexualize a male, mass presenting body, but it doesn’t come with the danger that it comes along with, you know, objectifying the opposite.
Rhiannon (01:03:31.99)
I mean,
Cal Macdonald (01:03:39.265)
Yeah, yeah.
Rhiannon (01:03:39.736)
you
Rhiannon (01:03:43.704)
That’s just the binary, it’s not even touching all the extra bits around the outside.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:03:45.291)
And that’s just the binary, right? That’s not even including, no, that’s not including, that’s not including, know, Aro-ace people, that’s not including gender fluid people or even non-binary individuals. Like all of their experiences are going to be different when it comes to, you know, perceiving sexualization because the risk is different when it comes to like what that percept, what that visibility can subject them to.
Cal Macdonald (01:03:47.657)
Yeah.
Rhiannon (01:03:54.392)
Yeah.
No.
Rhiannon (01:04:02.584)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (01:04:10.616)
Obviously, mean, as well, think at this point, it’s always probably worth mentioning that it’s not to say that there isn’t any members of the male cast or people that will go through this and maybe it does go under reported. You know what mean? There’ll be some kind of under reporting possibly because of the perception of how they would be treated. So basically being like, this person followed me home and people being like, great for you. You know what I mean?
Kennedy (she/her) (01:04:26.4)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:04:35.198)
Yeah.
Rhiannon (01:04:37.408)
It’s not that actually it can’t also be harmful the other way. So it’s just better for everyone to be aware of like, I will sort of agree with Kennedy that I think that the potential risk and harm might be greater for sort of the femme prison in cast members and actors. like, you know, it’s just a kind of keeping this culture of being open and that we are here to support people and be like, yes, we can find these people attractive, but equally like they’re people and you need to respect.
their space and the fact that they’re actually actors at work doing a job. you know, it’s also kind of, yeah, it’s a…
Kennedy (she/her) (01:05:09.065)
Yeah.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:05:12.676)
But not to add another layer to it, Martin, like, that’s not to say that male sexualization and objectification can’t happen and that it can’t be detrimental. Justin Bieber is a perfect example of that. He was a child when he was popular. And to watch, go back and watch how women were interacting with him was abhorrent. And if he was a little girl or a teenage girl and men were reacting to them in that way, it would have been an immediate
Rhiannon (01:05:14.424)
Mm.
Rhiannon (01:05:22.562)
Hmm. Hmm.
Rhiannon (01:05:30.707)
it’s terrifying.
Rhiannon (01:05:36.66)
Uh-huh.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:05:40.033)
problem or it should have been an immediate problem anyway. And it’s not to say that those individuals don’t experience trauma from being violated in that way, but it’s also part of the issue. If you’re socializing male and mass presenting people, or rather assigned male at birth people to perceive sexual advances,
Rhiannon (01:05:41.194)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, it should have been an immediate problem.
Rhiannon (01:05:49.335)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (01:06:01.399)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:06:04.736)
as something that you’re entitled to both giving and receiving. And then if a woman talks to you in that way, soak it up because it’s great whether you want it or not. And it’s just like, that’s not, that’s not okay.
Rhiannon (01:06:09.356)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (01:06:13.396)
Yeah, it’s like whether you want it or not, yeah. That’s all wrong too. It’s like, no. They need to be able to feel safe in their own boundaries and to be able to say like, hey, this is, you But yeah, it’s, it is a deeply, deeply complex issue, but.
Cal Macdonald (01:06:19.522)
Yeah.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:06:32.896)
But having conversations like this are important because you never know who is listening and never, In comfortable conversations, I used to really shy away from them. But as I’ve gotten older, I kind of lean into them now. And you can have an uncomfortable conversation with compassion. But you.
Rhiannon (01:06:35.562)
Mm-hmm. Who might hear it and go, good point. Yeah, white kids never considered it.
Rhiannon (01:06:58.37)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:07:00.606)
You can’t have an uncomfortable conversation if you’re not, you’re going into it already closed off. you just kind of got to, yeah.
Rhiannon (01:07:08.632)
If you kind of got your decision made about how you feel about that, if you kind of go in, actually guys, like I’ve had this thought, like has anyone else thought about this or is my thinking on this wrong? And I think that actually, and especially like if we as ourselves right now are putting ourselves in a public space where people can hear us talking and that could be quite impactful if someone was to then be like, actually, I don’t quite agree with what you said there. And you go like, you know what? So right. Thank you for taking that opportunity to educate me on what I have said. And if I wasn’t aligning, because I think
Kennedy (she/her) (01:07:18.803)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:07:33.696)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (01:07:38.52)
A lot of the time, if people are open to these conversations and they’re having them, the chances are they actually want to learn from the wider community around them and that they are, you know, it’s kind of, think it generally signals that you’re kind of open to that level of conversation and that you kind of like here to talk about it. And, and it’s nice because as you say, the more you put out into the world, the more positivity and open-mindedness you put out there, the more it’s going to, you know, it’s going to kind of drip feed and people are going to start wanting to do that more and feeling like that’s a safe thing to do.
Manny (01:07:57.704)
positivity and hope.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:08:02.228)
We’re done.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:08:07.218)
Yeah.
Rhiannon (01:08:08.064)
And we can only all have a benefit from that. So that’s great.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:08:10.76)
Yeah, and if the people who don’t want to benefit from something like that, like I’m a firm believer that we need to be making people who hold bigoted points of views uncomfortable in society because that form of thinking is not civilized thinking and you don’t get to benefit from all of the perks of living in a civilization if you don’t conduct yourself with civility. you know, if we hold these conversations, difficult ones, particularly, especially.
Rhiannon (01:08:15.554)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (01:08:21.762)
Mm.
Rhiannon (01:08:27.49)
Mm.
Rhiannon (01:08:30.936)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:08:40.108)
in public places, in mixed crowds.
and it upsets people, it ruffles feathers, then like that’s the point. Go home and think about it or go home and be mad about it. Whatever, maybe you’ll grow from this, maybe you won’t. But I am all, especially the way things have been going in this country, I am all the way done with being civil towards people who will vote your rights away, towards people who will discriminate against you in the workplace. I’m not about making those people
Rhiannon (01:09:13.656)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:09:15.604)
have comfortable lives so they can exist and continue to perpetuate multiple forms of violence.
Rhiannon (01:09:17.845)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (01:09:23.51)
Yeah, definitely.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:09:26.004)
Sorry, we lost you for a second there, Martin. We were answering your question. It was very thoughtful and insightful.
Cal Macdonald (01:09:27.533)
It’s a… Yeah.
Rhiannon (01:09:28.66)
Yeah, no, I’m sorry, Morton.
Manny (01:09:30.373)
Can you hear me? Can you hear me okay? It’s my own fault. I’m going to pretend there was a technical difficulty, but in the interests of everybody learning from one person’s mistake, my phone, my computer wouldn’t cope with the live streaming. It’s coped with the recorded podcasts. That’s why I changed to my phone at the beginning because my computer’s too old to cope with the live streaming.
Cal Macdonald (01:09:33.151)
Yeah, we can hear you.
Rhiannon (01:09:33.848)
Yeah, we can. I was going say we just said…
Kennedy (she/her) (01:09:35.54)
we can.
Manny (01:09:59.311)
on the phone the phone came up with a little symbol saying seven percent battery change to battery saver so i pressed okay battery saver and everything went black but i’m back now
Rhiannon (01:09:59.842)
Mm-hmm.
Cal Macdonald (01:10:07.629)
You
Rhiannon (01:10:11.832)
Oh dear. Well, we just, I was just saying, we were just saying thank you for kind of presenting that question because like, you know, it’s, great to be able to open that kind of discussion up and thank you for doing that.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:10:19.688)
Yeah, that’s a good question.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:10:26.528)
Yeah, I have a question for you all. I have several questions, actually. I’m going to whittle it down to two. I want to the pertinent one last. Selfishly, I don’t know if any of you are TikTok people, but there was a trend going around very recently about the Black Scottish community. And this guy who’s a fitness content person
Rhiannon (01:10:29.048)
Woohoo!
Cal Macdonald (01:10:30.231)
Rhiannon (01:10:33.282)
Mm-hmm.
Cal Macdonald (01:10:46.613)
yeah, I know what you’re gonna say.
Rhiannon (01:10:49.1)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:10:54.132)
Somehow one of his TikToks made it onto everybody’s For You page and Black Americans were like, what? We over there too? And it was just so, because those of us who know, know, right? But because of American education systems, not everybody has access to everything intentionally, by the way, they do on purpose. We’re not ignorant, we’re just propaganda-ized. It’s a thing. Some of us are ignorant, I don’t wanna say that. Most of us.
Rhiannon (01:11:01.602)
Yeah.
Rhiannon (01:11:10.584)
Mm-hmm.
Manny (01:11:18.504)
Good, yeah.
Rhiannon (01:11:18.806)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:11:24.105)
just went to American schools where they don’t teach you really anything important at all.
Rhiannon (01:11:27.8)
English schools have similar views of their own history.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:11:31.174)
really? Colonialism.
Cal Macdonald (01:11:35.201)
Yeah.
Manny (01:11:36.584)
Can somebody refresh to me as to what this TikTok content had?
Kennedy (she/her) (01:11:43.297)
So it was just a guy who is a fitness guy and he went on his TikTok and was talking about, I guess it was the end of summer holiday and how it always feels like it comes too soon. A mundane TikTok-y thing to say. I mean, everybody on Black TikTok was like, who is he? Where can we find him? Is he hungry? Can we send him a sandwich? What is going on?
Cal Macdonald (01:12:09.037)
Ha
Kennedy (she/her) (01:12:11.136)
Is he the only one? it like Highlander? What’s happening? So much so to the point where Roy Wood Jr., who’s a comedian and political commentary for The Daily Show now, went to Scotland specifically. He went to Edinburgh first and was like, I don’t see any black people. I feel like you all lied to me. Where are all the black people at? And everybody sent him to Glasgow and they ran in, like they orchestrated it and they ran into each other. I haven’t watched the conversation because I wanted to sit down and like, you know, give it my full attention.
But I am all about the preservation of indigenous cultural groups and diasporic cultural groups as well. Not only does it challenge everything about colonialism and imperialism, but it also is an accurate representation of humanity. So to see this man just living his best Black Scottish life, get all of this attention and then for all of these other
Black Scottish content creators to get all of this attention suddenly as well. And for them to be like, wow, this is so positive and reaffirming and like wholesome. Did I just find the other half of my family? What’s going on? And it’s just like, so like, you aren’t aware, Scotland is kind of on this radar of American perception. And if it ends up really well, cause so far it has been, know, yay. If it somehow goes south, cause it can.
Cal Macdonald (01:13:31.201)
Okay.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:13:40.338)
Sorry in advance. Because America.
Manny (01:13:41.978)
Ha ha ha.
Cal Macdonald (01:13:43.032)
Hahaha
Manny (01:13:45.199)
Okay. Can I just ask, does this content creator guy from Scotland look something like a super physique guy from a porridge advert?
Rhiannon (01:13:45.261)
Well, we will.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:13:46.996)
but it’s grand.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:13:57.547)
I’ve never seen, I’ve never, I haven’t looked so far into his content to see what he looks like physically because I’m engaged. But you know, he looks kind of like Sterling K. Brown. They called, someone started calling him Scotty K. Brown for a little bit there. It was actually, I don’t know what that is. Like this one is a, Walnore I guess? Sorry guys.
Cal Macdonald (01:13:58.253)
Peace.
Manny (01:14:01.99)
Okay.
Rhiannon (01:14:04.362)
Hahaha
Cal Macdonald (01:14:10.081)
Okay.
All right.
Cal Macdonald (01:14:19.841)
I was…
Kennedy (she/her) (01:14:26.08)
Yeah, it was such a cool peek into…
Rhiannon (01:14:26.509)
bit soon.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:14:33.052)
Scottish culture, you know what I mean? Like, because we don’t get it a lot.
Rhiannon (01:14:33.304)
I’d seen quite a few people sort of like reposting it and like asking like, you know, if people did like cookouts and stuff. we were like, the weather isn’t notorious for that here. But like, was interesting. was a couple of sort of, I don’t even know if they were necessarily would consider themselves content creators, but black people living in Scotland who were just like kind of saying like discussing having had Americans ask them.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:14:38.708)
Yeah.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:14:43.936)
Mm-hmm.
Cal Macdonald (01:14:44.911)
yeah.
Rhiannon (01:15:02.959)
where they get yams from and if they do cookouts and things like that and it was just like really interesting to watch this this dialogue with them going like sort of things that they sort of associate with their blackness and their sort of the anticy and they were like it’s interesting because like these are things that we also have but we do this differently and it was like it was really interesting.
Cal Macdonald (01:15:06.807)
Yes.
Manny (01:15:08.668)
So.
Cal Macdonald (01:15:12.109)
Because,
Kennedy (she/her) (01:15:24.436)
So I recently learned why that is. Ryan Coogler was doing a whole bunch of research for sinners, and specifically the intersection of Black Americanism and Irish Americanism in that point in time specifically, but also overall. And he was talking about his time.
Rhiannon (01:15:29.569)
Okay.
Rhiannon (01:15:36.344)
Rhiannon (01:15:41.695)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (01:15:46.135)
Hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:15:50.899)
on the African continent when he was preparing for Black Panther and sitting with all these cultural groups and, you know, learning as much as he can, he learned that the cookout is a thing. Like it’s, it happens in a lot of West African cultures, just inherently. You have the folks who can cook cooking. You have the elders on the porch or, you know, playing with the kids. You’ve got the kids running around doing whatever. You’ve got somebody on a grill.
Rhiannon (01:16:03.063)
Mm.
Rhiannon (01:16:06.423)
Mm-hmm.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:16:17.992)
separate from the folks who are cooking. You’ve someone on a grill, an open flame. And just the camaraderie of that is such, I think, diasporic strength because it obviously made it over here to America, made it to the Caribbean. You know, it apparently happens in Scotland as well, but that’s because, you know, all of the folks who live in the UK or who are from West Africa initially,
Manny (01:16:28.741)
.
Rhiannon (01:16:35.426)
Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (01:16:40.952)
you
Kennedy (she/her) (01:16:46.078)
they all have their own version of the cookout. So it comes with them and just looks different because everybody’s Scottish now. Yeah. think it’s a very powerful thing, especially because the parallels between the cookout.
Rhiannon (01:16:48.352)
Yeah. It just looks different. Yeah. Yeah. It’s amazing. Definitely.
Cal Macdonald (01:16:53.261)
Yeah.
I’m just going to add…
Cal Macdonald (01:17:02.861)
So was just going to add for that Black Scottish TikTok, there’s one TikTok group you should really look at, Black Scottish Adventurers. I just want to briefly say they did the best video ever. They got a comment saying, I don’t know if you saw what they did, they got this comment saying, get back on the boat. And then they just said, we did and we’re here in Lewis and Harris. This is living. And I was like, that was the best response they could have ever given.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:17:03.274)
Sorry.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:17:15.176)
Yes, he suggested that, yes! Mm-hmm.
Rhiannon (01:17:15.52)
yeah.
Cal Macdonald (01:17:31.501)
There’s like videos of them on the beaches here. They were just, they’re great. They’re But I hate to cut you off, but we’re kind of running, we’ve run well, well over, but it’s in the best possible way. So just big thank you to Kennedy. Just where can people find you if they want to reach out or find out more about you?
Kennedy (she/her) (01:17:32.074)
Just like get on your own boat and jet up.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:17:38.654)
Yeah, that’s awesome. I love that.
Rhiannon (01:17:40.716)
Yeah. Yeah.
Rhiannon (01:17:53.442)
Huge, huge thank you.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:17:57.761)
So I am no longer on the internet. I no longer have social medias. I unplugged completely. I took the red pill.
Cal Macdonald (01:18:02.176)
Alright.
Manny (01:18:05.395)
Woohoo.
Rhiannon (01:18:06.896)
Mm-hmm. I did try to find, I did that as part of my sort of research I tried to find it was like, you know what? Unplug. I was like, unplug girl, this is great.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:18:12.252)
No, it’s, I realized, I realized that I had been online since I was 12 years old. And as someone in their forties, I needed to unplug. You know what I mean? However, I do still produce and write a podcast called Your Away Team. You can find that everywhere that you love podcasts. It is an in-universe fiction. It’s more akin to a radio drama following two temporal officers.
Rhiannon (01:18:17.97)
Mm. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:18:39.408)
as they accidentally develop a temporal drive, wrestle with the ethical complications that go with that and use, we call them data files, episodes of the show or films in some cases as points of reference to cite how to move with other temporal incursions. My cohost is a professional cosplayer named Tony Ray. If you’re in DragonCon right now, you know exactly who he is. He’s phenomenal.
And, you know, I’m looking forward to ending that. We’re in a of an extended hiatus because creative things, and also life gets in the way. He’s got kids and stuff. He’s dead. So, yeah. But, you know, it’s been, it’s been cool. It’s been a little frustrating, you know, writing this, you know, distant future somehow in universe thing. And then somehow discovery catches up with it and aligns with that was, that was, that was mind blowing, not to use a tired phrase.
Manny (01:19:12.453)
.
Rhiannon (01:19:17.752)
Gotta let it be organic. Gotta let it be organic.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:19:39.467)
But I think it’s a solid body of work in that it’s different than other podcasts and that it’s not quite a fanfic, not quite a podcast, somewhere in between and also separate. So, Yoroway team still has an Instagram, you can find us there. And if you wanted to reach out, can, I guess, yorowayteam at gmail.com. That’s a great way, there you go. So I am kind of on the internet.
Cal Macdonald (01:20:04.279)
Okay.
Manny (01:20:04.992)
It’s been lovely for me, it’s been lovely for me and Callum to listen to Rhiannon and Kennedy doing a mini woman at war.
Rhiannon (01:20:05.56)
Can’t wait to give it a listen.
Cal Macdonald (01:20:07.949)
Thank you very much for that. No problem at all.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:20:09.748)
Thank you so much for having me, you all. Gourv Makhach. This has been amazing.
Rhiannon (01:20:13.462)
This has been so great. And thank you for such a lovely introduction and to be on a podcast like this.
Cal Macdonald (01:20:19.265)
Yes, because I honestly think Mark.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:20:20.288)
I’m so happy for you! Look at you!
Cal Macdonald (01:20:28.095)
Yeah I think if you ever get up to the Hebrides for Ocon I think people would pay to listen to you and Rhiannon chat for a good hour or so. Never know, we might make that happen one year at Ocon.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:20:42.16)
trust me, if we, if slash when we get to Ireland and OCon is still happening, we will definitely make the trip because I’m about it. I love niche, nuanced, marginalized nerd representation. So let’s go.
Rhiannon (01:20:46.328)
Mm-hmm.
Cal Macdonald (01:20:49.727)
Yes. Yes.
Rhiannon (01:20:50.146)
Please come. Yeah.
Manny (01:20:58.97)
Yes, that’s us! That’s us! Whoa!
Cal Macdonald (01:20:59.155)
awesome. Yes.
Rhiannon (01:20:59.724)
We love to see it. Woohoo! We love to see it.
Cal Macdonald (01:21:05.089)
Yeah. And what else was I going to say?
Kennedy (she/her) (01:21:06.783)
Very cool.
Manny (01:21:07.57)
I really thought that Kennedy, when she said she had some questions for the Scottish contingent, was going to ask the question.
Cal Macdonald (01:21:15.889)
Hahaha!
Rhiannon (01:21:21.08)
What? I’m like, the artistic pause, the artistic like, I’m like, what was the
Kennedy (she/her) (01:21:23.56)
What question?
Manny (01:21:27.217)
But you can’t find out the answer to that until you come here in person. Sorry.
Rhiannon (01:21:32.888)
I didn’t, I was gonna say is it the kilt question. I see.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:21:33.28)
Oh, you what? that a kilt thing? I know about the kilt thing. No, no, because my fiance be wearing kilts when we go to fancy places and everybody gives him compliments and he hates it because he doesn’t like attention, but he looks great. So like, I know about the kilt stuff.
Cal Macdonald (01:21:38.345)
Yeah.
Rhiannon (01:21:44.888)
It’s like, it’s isn’t that difficult, isn’t it? When you’re like, yeah, but you look so good and they’re like, please don’t look at me. And you’re like, but we must. It’s like we must. Yeah.
Cal Macdonald (01:21:45.485)
Ha
Manny (01:21:50.685)
You
Kennedy (she/her) (01:21:51.42)
Yeah, we went out of our way to coordinate kilts that had colors that I had in my wardrobe as well so we match. So people are always like, my god, yes. And he’s like, don’t look at me. And I’m like, no, look. You look great.
Rhiannon (01:22:03.136)
Yeah, we did that for our engagement photos. It was, it was the business.
Cal Macdonald (01:22:03.373)
Okay, really good. I’m sorry. I’m really gonna wrap this up. I think we’re definitely, there will be a follow-up with Kennedy at some point. think we can’t, I think everyone, think Rhiannon, you’ll be desperate for that yourself at some point to follow up this.
Rhiannon (01:22:14.006)
Amazing.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:22:18.122)
Okay.
Rhiannon (01:22:26.483)
absolutely, absolutely, that would be amazing.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:22:26.598)
Okay. Yeah, please. I’m here for any podcast questions or anything that you all might have for sure.
Cal Macdonald (01:22:32.375)
Yeah. All right. Okay.
Rhiannon (01:22:33.694)
Stunning. Fantastic. Well, I’m gonna, I’ll head off skis guys but…
Cal Macdonald (01:22:38.093)
Yeah, with that, thank you everyone. We’ve got some good episodes coming up on the show. I think our next one’s gonna be the Buffy deep dive, which I think it’s just gonna be chaos that one. then we’ve also…
Rhiannon (01:22:40.814)
Rhiannon (01:22:49.206)
I’m so ready. I am so ready. I was born ready.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:22:52.96)
Wait, wait, can I come back? Wait, wait.
Manny (01:22:57.167)
Did you see Kennedy’s eyes light up and go sideways there when you said that?
Cal Macdonald (01:23:02.518)
Yep.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:23:06.024)
I have an ep- I’m literally looking at my autograph photo of David Boreanaz right now. Please let me come back now. Please. I beg of
Cal Macdonald (01:23:11.583)
All right, right, right, we have to. Thank you so, so much. It’s been fantastic and we’ll see the rest of it. And thank you everyone for listening and watching and we’ll see you again. Bye.
Kennedy (she/her) (01:23:19.808)
Thank you.
Rhiannon (01:23:26.264)
See you again, lots of love, bye!
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